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Video Transcript

The following is an exact transcript of James' Story. The boldface headings have been inserted to make the text easier to follow. The headings correspond to the suggested stop points in section IV of this manual: Presenting the Videotape Step by Step.

0:00 to 7:08: Introducing Dr. Steven Wolin & Dr. Sybil Wolin, their ideas and James

I'm Steven Wolin, and I'm a physician and a psychiatrist.

I'm Sybil Wolin, and I'm a developmental psychologist.

However, most of my professional life has been spent as a classroom teacher.

And, I've been doing research, mostly with children who grew up in alcoholic families.

And in doing that work, I had the opportunity to meet with parents who had children with a wide range of handicaps.

I found that lots of families and lots of kids from alcoholic families were not becoming alcoholic.

Some families had a certain resilience in them which allowed them to deal with a difficult situation in a very creative way.

Well, the book that we wrote is called "The Resilient Self: How Survivors of Troubled Families Rise above Adversity."

In traditional thinking in child psychology and child psychiatry, there were a group of ideas which we've come to call the Damage Model.

And in this model you have a troubled family or a difficult or adverse situation and that is looked at as damaging the child.

Now we have proposed an alternative to the Damage Model which we call the Challenge Model.

And we say that this situation is certainly damaging to the child.

But for many children, this situation also is an opportunity or a challenge to respond creatively and adaptively.

There's grief. There's determination. There's sadness. There's satisfaction.

We've come to call this mix of feelings "survivor's pride."

The process whereby you change a child's view of herself or himself from just being damaged to being both damaged as well as growing up healthy, we call it "reframing."

You allow the child or adolescent to experience the bad side, and then get them to acknowledge the detail of what they did to take care of themselves.

How did you do it? How did you help yourself?

I did the best that I could.

And you help them feel some of the pride of the actions that they took during childhood, during adolescence which has affected their life even to this point.

You have to be very proud of that kind of survival.

The frame of mind has a tremendous impact, not only on the person who is receiving help, but also on the person giving it.

It you see it as a challenge, you're going to be more effective than if you see it as a tragedy.

I think anybody can be a reframer.

They have to know the vocabulary.

They need to know the words of strength.

They need to be on the lookout for it, and they need to be trusting, caring, sympathetic people.

Resiliences are the strengths that kids develop over time as they cope actively and creatively with the troubles that befall them.

These seven resiliencies are everyday words that kids might use while they're talking to us.

These are the seven resiliencies.

Insight is exactly what it says it is.

Insight is seeing into things, seeing below the surface.

And insight as a resilience in kids coming from troubled families is the ability to know that there's a problem in the family.

That their family may not be normal or healthy or like other families.

The hardship of James' life is profound.

My mother, she was - at the time - I believe she was an alcoholic.

We were taken away from her by the state.

I never did really live with my mother.

It was very rough growing up with my aunt.

She was very strict.

I believe she loved me, but she didn't show it too much.

There was lots of violence like right next door every day.

People fighting - killing each other.

So I got involved with the gangs for protection and companionship.

I was in the Gangster Disciples, the GD street gang.

And from then on it was downhill.

I got a record about as long as my leg on fighting.

I started selling drugs, and the next thing you know, I started using them.

Here come the bullets.

I seen my friend Charles die from a bullet to the head.

I was standing right next to him.

The bullet just knocked his teeth right out the front of his mouth.

He just fell to the ground.

He just laid there shaking.

I moved up here because I wanted to get away from it.

I wanted to try to start over.

I was living in homeless shelters, drop in shelters.

It was either that way - sticking with the homeless shelters out here until lI was able to get a place of my own or going back to Chicago and getting back with the drugs and the gangs and everything and wind up getting killed.

If you only thought about James' hardship and the damage that it was causing to him, and you never considered that there was another side, a more resilient side of him, you would predict only bad things for him in the future. ,

I want to try and infuse him with some of the pride that he deserves to feel and may not have been feeling.

So to turn something that he might not have felt so good about, maybe he even saw it as being part of damage.

Out of that comes some of his survivor's pride.

Right then and there in the interview.

7:08 - 9:33: Reframing James' participation in the Gangster Disciples

et's go back now and talk a little about your experience that you had in the gangs.

Tell me how old you were when you first joined the gangs.

Say like 10 or 11.

When did you leave the gang?

Just a year ago?

When you came here?

So that was a pretty long time.

So that was almost 6 years you were in the gang?

And did it have a name?

The Gangster Disciples, the GDs.

The GDs, right?

And how large were the Gangster Disciples?

They're really large.

They're up here too.

But mostly they like own the whole city in Chicago.

So there are like thousands of them?

And, was it a pretty good experience, would you say, to be in a gang?

Or was it a bad experience?

Or what was it?

I grew from it.

I learned a lot -um- from my mistakes.

So I'd say it was a good experience.

Give me an example of something that you learned from being in the gang.

What did the gang help you to do?

I learned how easily someone can be manipulated by another person, by wanting to fight, or a couple of words being thrown at each other.

And you learn that little words really can't hurt you.

Oh, you mean that you should be sort of tough, and not respond to somebody else's words.

You shouldn't be provoked.

So was there some experience you had where you watched something bad happen?

Do you remember?

Give me an example.

Tell me how old are you in this memory?

I think I was in sixth grade...age 12-13.

It was just on a bus stop, me and a couple of my friends, and this other guy was standing next to him, he just stepped back onto one of my friends' feet.

And he was like, 'man, get off my feet.' and the guy that stepped on his foot, he turned around and started saying something, I can't remember exactly what he said, but he was talking crazy,

And my friend just stuck him and broke his jaw.

9:33 - 13:06: Continuing the reframe of James' participation in the Gangster Disciples

And so where were you at the time?

You were watching that from close by?

And what did you learn from that?

I learned that my friend was crazy.

Well - yeah, there was a difference between you and your friend,

And what was the difference?

It sounds like you knew something about yourself that was different from him.

Yeah, that he easily provoked...short temper.

He had a short fuse.

So were you one of the kids that had like a long fuse - that you could watch something and not respond?

No, not really.

I used to always get suspended, from like fifth grade on up, for having a short temper.

And the teachers used to tell me, "Learn how to control your temper, boy. Learn how to control your temper."

And you didn't know it for a while?

How did you learn it?

I don't know.

Just taking a look at myself, and like man, "You do have a short temper there."

Now in the gang - the gang gets into a lot of fights?

Would you say the gang members get into a lot of fights?

And most of the gang members are pretty short?fused.

What's the difference between somebody who learns not to react?

What's the difference?

Um - They live longer.

So you start figuring that you have to take care of yourself.

And that you've got to do something different.

And that seems to me that's a big thing that's happened to you.

You've now figured out how to stay away from trouble.

Do you know that's a pretty unusual thing for kids?

So how do you do it then?

Let's say for example you don't have much to do and you see there's a group of guys and there's trouble possibly.

How do you pull yourself away?

How do you know to not get involved?

I just psyche myself up.

I be like, man, you don't want to do that, cause you know what you came up here to do.

You know what you got to do, which is get that education.

You can't afford to be going to jail anymore.

So you just gotta psyche yourself up.

So you psyche yourself up, you like talk to yourself?

You psyche yourself up and you pull back and go back to your room.

Do you feel better when you do that?

Definitely, cause I wake up the next day and I hear about what happened with the group of guys I was with getting into trouble and I'm like whewwwww, I'm glad I changed my mind.

Right! So that's an example of feeling proud, wouldn't you say?

That's pride!

That's the kind of pride that you know that we're talking about? That feeling like you looked at what you did, you woke up the Next morning, and you said, "I did a good thing for myself."

And I gather that you didn't always have that?

And I gather when you look at some of these guys in school, you see that they don't have it?

Okay so that's the ability that I want to talk to you about a little more.

The way you know when there's trouble out there and you either control yourself, or you figure something out and you feel good about it.

13:06 - 18:16: Identifying James' insight

I tried to get James to see that what he was doing was quite a talent and that although he might not be thinking about it, either back then when he was younger, or even at the time of the interview, I want him to understand that not everybody can do this.

For example, his friend couldn't do it.

A lot of other kids can't do it and that he was doing something special.

James doesn't just have experiences.

He's always thinking about his experiences.

So he thinks rather than acts and that's a big part of his insight.

And there's a considerable amount of pride there, because James was not always like that.

He remembers very well when he would lose control.

And he knows that he's arrived in a new place.

And that he's mastered something that's been a big problem for him. That he has found a technique for controlling his anger and that fills him with pride about himself.

I want to go back earlier now to your mom, your aunt, your grandma.

Let me get the sequence right here.

When did you stop living with your mom?

It had to be when I was like one year, one year old.

You don't remember?

You've just heard stories about it?

What's the what's the deal with your mom?

Do you know what happened?

I know she was an alcoholic.

The story I heard was she was out working one day and the state came in and took us away.

Cause she had left us alone.

She had neglected...

And so people came in and they took you out of the house, and what did they do with you?

We got put in custody of our grandmother.

Right, and what's happened with your mom since then?

Have you had contact?

On and off, like every other year.

Lately I've been talking to her often, because she's trying to get back close to us, but still she's a chronic drinker.

Oh, she's still drinking?

How do you know that you should still keep your distance?

Because when I talk to her she gets upset with me for the littlest things.

She's crying and screaming at me, when she's drunk.

And this is all over the phone?

So here again it sounds like you talk to yourself.

You say, "I better control myself here, and stay cool."

Most people I know around my age, if their mother was alcoholic, they would snap on their mother and just treat them like they were one of their friends, or one of their enemies.

I don't do that to my mother.

So what do you do?

I just talk to her, try to calm her down and then I write her a long letter.

One time I did write her like a four page letter.

She didn't write me back but I didn't really -

But you did the right thing anyway, right?

I mean by writing her that letter, by not blowing up.

So there's once again you knowing this is alcoholism, right?

And I shouldn't get so upset about it?

How'd you learn that?

I have no idea really.

I just figure out things.

Sit down and think about things.

Have you always been a - figuring out kind of -

Things on my own?

On your own, Yeah?

Yeah, basically...

For as long as you can...

So that's a kind of knowledge that you have.

We actually have a name for that.

We call it insight.

The ability to kind of figure out what you need and figure out where the problem is.

Now when did you learn that your mom had problems?

I think when it really hit me was when I was six years old.

It was like my six year birthday.

And she was calling me like weeks before telling me how much she was going to come up there and all the gifts she was going to bring me and things like that.

I was waiting up there on my birthday, and she didn't come.

And what happened to you?

You were mad.

It just made me figure that I don't need her anymore, you know, forget about her.

You kind of wrote her off at that point?

How did you figure it out that it wasn't something with you but it was something with mom?

Because the times that she did come up there, you could read it all over her face.

She was just strung out on that alcohol.

Oh, you could tell the difference between being strung out and being sober?

How do you tell?

She's much, much nicer when she's sober, you know.

We can talk a little bit more.

And she's less emotional when she's sober.

18:16 - end: Finding James' insight in other parts of his story

Okay, so you move to your grandma's next.

Is that where the people dropped you off after they pulled you

Out of your mom's house?

To your grandma's.

I heard a little bit about your grandmother.

Tell me a little bit about her?

What's she like?

All I know is she was really a great person you know I used

To..there's only one scene that I really remember.

How old are you?

I had to be two or three years old.

I was just laying up in the bed with her watching a movie.

Just relaxing.

That's a good feeling on the bed together with...

That's the only scene I can remember with my grandmother.

So you go from your grandma to your aunt.

And that's at three?

Okay, and then how long did you live with your aunt?

From three until -

Three until sixteen.

The whole time.

Continuously, from three until sixteen.

Describe her to me a little bit?

She was real strong, real forceful.

She cared a lot about us, but she just didn't really show it.

But did you know she was caring anyway, even though she didn't show it.

Now I do but back then I didn't.

What'd you think back then?

That she didn't care?

That she hated me, yeah.

You thought she hated you. Did you think that you were doing bad things?

I was doing bad things, but still, I didn't figure that would cause her to hate me.

You mean you didn't think you deserved to be hated?

Did she hit you?

Did she beat you a lot?

Like, what would she use?

It started out with her hand, then belts, then extension cords,

Then telephones.

Anything she could get her hands on.

Did you learn how to stay out of trouble?

Out of her way?

Oh yeah, by ignoring her, or staying out of the house.

Staying out of the house.

Like, if, she was in a bad mood?

Was she a drinker?

So how would you know that you that you had to stay away?

Cause when she used to come home and you could see the frightened look on her face if she was upset.

So just stay out of the house.

And so you would get out of the house, and then would she calm down and you'd be okay?

Yeah.
That's another example, by the way, of a kid who knows, the kind of insight that I was talking about.

Some kids know when there's trouble and they know when to put themselves at a distance.

It sounds like you've done this with the gang members, you've done this with trouble here, some of the kids on the street in Madison.

You know when to stay the right distance away, you knew it a bit with your aunt.

This is the kind of special strength kids need to have when there's a lot of trouble.

And it sounds like you have this.

It sounds like you've been a kid who knows when there's trouble, knows how to stay away from it.

Better than other kids do.

At least now, you know.

Maybe you didn't when you were getting in those fights, but it sounds like you know it now.

Something was happening in that interview.

As we moved along, and we started to accumulate examples of where he had taken care of himself and ended up well -

In the beginning he would say, "Well I really wasn't thinking about that then, I've never thought about it that way."

But he got the point.

You could watch it in his eyes, you could watch that smile coming over his face.

A kind of growing sense that he was someone who had prevailed under situations where another kid might not have.

So what we see again is a very important part of the Challenge Model.

We see terrible pain, terrible hardship, terrible damage, and yet "I can be strong in the face of that and I have many reasons to be proud." We know what James' outcome would be if we only had a Damage Model perspective.

But let's look at James' actual outcome.

At West High I'm taking a technology class, and we get to make computer programs, run programs on the computer, design houses, graphics, all types of fun stuff.

I'm pretty good at it too.

My last two grades have been an A and a B for the last two semesters.

I'm doing great in school now.

The way I'm going to pay for college is hopefully through financial aid cause I don't have any money myself right now.

It feels great to have my own room now.

It seems like I have more privacy and it kinda makes me relaxed to sit in my room and play my radio all the time and do my homework all by myself.

I have to make all decisions for myself and make all motions for myself, cause I don't have nobody else to take me by the hand and take me through anything.

I'm realizing that it's a good accomplishment for me and for a person my age to do so.

I'm very proud of myself.

James is really defying the damage odds and the way he's doing it is with his insight resilience.

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